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The Spiritlove Forum

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Kitkat
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The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Sun 20 Mar 2011, 20:41

Spiritlove




Link now inactive. 
(Forum closed)
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End of an era

Post by Kitkat on Sat 03 May 2014, 07:18

At her request, Pixie's account has been deleted from Spiritlove, together with all her posts!  The result being that now the whole forum is quite simply a nonsensical sham, with multiple threads not making any sense, people replying to posts that do not exist - and any posts that Pixie may have instigated as opening poster - now looks as though the first replying poster had started it.  It's a complete mess!  

I was NOT consulted about this extraordinary request and would NEVER have agreed to it.  Indeed, I know of no existing situation where any forum would.  A fully joined up member has every right to cease from posting and to request deletion of their account BUT nowhere does that include contributions already made.  The member's account may be deactivated or deleted, retaining posts already made.  The 'delete all posts' option is there in order to deal with banned members, spammers and disruptive trolling posters, at the discretion of the admins and moderators.

To Pixie - if you happen to read this:  You VOLUNTARILY joined and posted prolifically and freely on a PUBLIC forum.  It is my personal opinion that what you have done is an extremely selfish and egotistical action. (Please feel free - anyone - to disagree with that opinion and discuss here).

I honestly do not believe that Rainbows had thought through the consequences of agreeing to such a request and the disruption and detrimental result such action would have on the whole forum.  Nevertheless, as I have said in the Shoutbox, the deed is now done and it is irreversible.  What's left of Spiritlove is just a farsical, shambolic shell.  The end of an era, as far as I am concerned.  I am both sad, angry and upset to have to say this, but I am done with it for my part.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Stardust on Wed 07 May 2014, 14:56

Aussiepom enquired after Pixie on SL. I checked and saw Pixie was no longer on the list of members and I couldn't find her anywhere. Now I know why.

I can understand your anger and frustration, Kit Kat, because although I've never been admin on a forum I can estimate all the hard work and long hours you've put into it from the beginning.

To be left with certain threads that have vital pieces missing so there's no fluidity, making comprehension difficult, not to mention threads without their original post, must have made you furious, especially after all you invested in SL, so much time that you could have spent doing other things. It's hurtful and depressing for you and I wish I could find words to make you feel better and stay with SL. There's a lot of history there for many of us and it wouldn't be the same without you there too.

I don't think the SL forum would survive without your input and you'd be sorely missed by all. You and Rainbows made a good team, and it can't have been easy just the two of you dealing with all the admin after Elly stopped.

There's nothing that can undo the damage now it's been done but it won't stop the forum from proceeding and moving forward unless you really do drop it. I'm not sure Rainbows can handle it alone, there's already what appears to be a spam (kitchens again) posted yesterday morning.

Perhaps once the shock has died down and your anger has abated you will return. I sincerely hope so. I can't bear thinking of you so upset.

Love and light and a big hug for a lovely girl. We all love you, Kit Kat. happyheart  happyheart



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Umberto Cocopop
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Thu 08 May 2014, 07:18

I wouldn't worry about it to be honest. It's very easy to get emotionally tied to things such as forums but this tendency means that you end up attributing a level of importance to them that isn't really warranted.

TBH, if the deletion of Pixie's posts hadn't been announced would anyone have actually noticed?

However...

Is the forum not backed up periodically? If it is, you would be able to restore it to how it was - although you may lose some of the latest postings (although they could be restored too if you know how).

If not, would this not be a good point to get some decent web hosting, set up a new forum/website where you have proper control of the content etc? I did advise this a while back. Freeforums are shite!

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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Thu 08 May 2014, 15:27

Umberto Cocopop wrote:Freeforums are shite!



There is NO back-up available to the owners of a FreeForum hosted site!!  Unless you pay lots of money and go through a very complicated procedure.  It's all very much controlled by the hosts and out of the hands of the admins (who are basically just 'clients' of FFs).  Furthermore ....  angry if a FF site goes for 90 days (I think it is ... could even be 60 ...) without a single post being made, the whole thing will be automatically deleted and will simply dissolve into oblivion.   annoyed 

Light After Life is also FreeForums- hosted.  That forum is really just a ghost forum at the moment, people do read in it, but hardly anyone posts there anymore. New people join from time to time, and very often don't even make one post, sometimes one or two and that's the end of it.  It's difficult to maintain an interest if no-one else is interacting with you.  I do now put the odd post in there - within the 60/90 days bracket, simply to avoid the above happening.  

In contrast, this forum (Krazy Kats) is also a 'free' forum, but different hosts - i.e. Forumotion.  The admins have total control with the building and maintenance of Forumotion-hosted free forums, with many more options at their fingertips and lots of room to experiment - AND back-up is available and easily accessible.  I do pay a very nominal amount to keep the ads out of here, but that is my own choice, and very easy to operate at my leisure (simply buy credits and use them for different things, one of which is to keep the ads at bay).  Even when the ads are operating here, they don't really cause any trouble and are pretty much unobtrusive.  Never had any down time with Forumotion either, whereas that is a frequent problem with FFs, affecting ALL their forums en masse, sometimes including the support forum also  angry (not that you get much support from them anyway even when they are operating).

In short, if the recent problem with mass deleted posts had occurred on a Forumotion hosted site, it would not have been such a disaster because there would have been a chance to rectify it.  Not so with FFs.  Evil or Very Mad

TBH, if the deletion of Pixie's posts hadn't been announced would anyone have actually noticed?
Well, it WAS noticed! and straight away - by another regular member (AP).  Others may well have noticed it too, but just didn't query it in writing (a query which, incidentally, has just been ignored!)  And it's certainly going to be puzzling and frustrating, at the very least, for anyone reading at any future time in any of the many affected threads, which just won't make any sense.


Stardust wrote:Perhaps once the shock has died down and your anger has abated you will return. I sincerely hope so. I can't bear thinking of you so upset.

Love and light and a big hug for a lovely girl. We all love you, Kit Kat.  happyheart happyheart
Aw, bless you Stardust  catlick ... what a nice thing to say.  I love you   ... but I have already accepted it now.  What's done is done, and there's really no point in crying over spilt vodka (or should that be milk? geek  ) but no, to continue on now would just be prolonging the issue as far as I am concerned.  Best to leave things as they are now.  
C'est la vie.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Stardust on Fri 09 May 2014, 10:32

Reading this extra information you've written about FreeForums, Kit Kat, certainly doesn't inspire posting in their forums. I'm glad KK, at least, isn't FF.

I'll make an effort to post in both LAL and KK when I have more spare time and start by catching up with what's new.

Have a great weekend everybody.  flower



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Kitkat
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Sat 10 May 2014, 14:03

AHA!  Guess what! ...  I have found a way to view whole pages, threads and posts of Spiritlove, just as they were at various dates over the years.  YESSSSS 

Lots of stuff has been captured and recorded to the archives of Wayback Machine.

And .... here's the irony .......  It was PIXIE that introduced me to Wayback Machine .... way back when.  lol! drunken Basketball 

Sooooo, IF someone had a mind to .... i.e. the time and inclination ... with a fair amount of painful dedication etc ....  the broken bits could well be restored back to their original form.  It would be a long and tedious task though, one which I don't think anyone would be too enamoured in undertaking.  I certainly wouldn't have the necessary enthusiasm to start into it, at present, - BUT it's really nice to know that IT CAN BE DONE if really, really desired.  purr 

 stickit to FreeForums ...   (and to Pixie, for that matter  obgob )    woohoo 




I've captured below just a few (randomly picked) of the archived detail that is available .... just to give yez an idea ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20080921203316/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/portal.php
21st September 2008

https://web.archive.org/web/20091028114319/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/index.php
28th October 2009

https://web.archive.org/web/20100829164722/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/search.php?search_id=active_topics
29th August 2010

https://web.archive.org/web/20110630085246/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/search.php?search_id=active_topics
30th June 2011

https://web.archive.org/web/20120113232457/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/index.php
13th January 2012


Here's how it looked on this day two years ago:  10th May 2012
https://web.archive.org/web/20120510045244/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/index.php

https://web.archive.org/web/20120421180257/http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/portal.php
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Umberto Cocopop
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Sat 10 May 2014, 14:14

You could just insert those links in the beginning of affected threads.

The Wayback machine doesn't capture everything, but it is good for retrieving lost content etc.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Sat 10 May 2014, 18:15

Umberto Cocopop wrote:You could just insert those links in the beginning of affected threads.

Yes  :thumb:  - that's a good idea. I didn't think of that. Would save a lot of hard work and stuff.
Not ideal, but then ... what ever is?  shrug 

I'm just happy for the moment anyway in the knowledge that these archives are available - to anyone that's interested. The good thing is that it's not lost forever. That's cheered me up no end.  sunny 
Bit like when you find out for sure  Wink that death is not the end.  What a Face  Although it might seem to be the case, but actually there is continuity of a kind, and knowledge of (and participation in) that ongoing situation is actually accessible and available to everyone, but not everyone is aware of it, and those who take the trouble to investigate will often have a nice surprise waiting for them. Even if they don't go that far ... it's still nice to know.  cheesy woohoo 
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Stardust on Mon 12 May 2014, 12:32

KitKat wrote: Bit like when you find out for sure that death is not the end. Although it might seem to be the case, but actually there is continuity of a kind, and knowledge of (and participation in) that ongoing situation is actually accessible and available to everyone, but not everyone is aware of it, and those who take the trouble to investigate will often have a nice surprise waiting for them.  Even if they don't go that far ... it's still nice to know.

 happyheart  Comforting thought.  happyheart 



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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Pixie on Tue 13 May 2014, 21:48

KK

Wasn't aware that the shit had hit the fan until just now...

Firstly - I'm fully to blame.

I originally asked for my account to be deleted (I wanted the name gone primarily) and asked what my options were. I didn't realise it would bugger things up this much. I didn't think that far. I know now I shouldn't have asked it of Bows - though I'd have expected that if it was going to be an issue- she'd have told me sod off. The fact that she didn't made me think it was all in order. Don't be blaming Rainbows...I put her in this situation and because she's a good friend, she wanted to help me. I feel really bad about it. I really care about two people on there and she's one of them.

I didn't think it through and I'm really sorry that I've buggered things up.

I presumed she'd have spoken to you. Perhaps I should have spoken to you as well. I didn't. Sorry.

Umbo, I really couldn't give a toss what you think.

KK

I didn't do anything deliberately to hurt the forum but I can see now that I have. What more can I say aside sorry?

If you wish to speak to me about it - please e-mail me because I won't be visiting here again. Or LAL so anything else you write about me - I won't see.

Yes I did introduce you to the Wayback machine - to help you with your fight against Donnis. I wish I hadn't have bothered now seeing as you've thrown it back at me but I can understand why you're pissed off.

I'd say that I wish that I'd never found the forum. It's brought me more stress than happiness thanks to certain people but then I'd have never found you and Rainbows. I've lost you but there's nothing I can do to make it right.

So goodbye, take care.

Once again - I'm deeply sorry.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Tue 13 May 2014, 22:53

Pixie wrote:Umbo, I really couldn't give a toss what you think.

What have I said now?  lol! 

I think your response here is a prime example of why you have such a problem interacting with others on forums.

All the best for the future.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Wed 14 May 2014, 12:17

.

Interesting to see the first thing that greets you from that first archived link to the forum (above), way back in September 2008:  The welcoming heading .....

Welcome

Welcome to spiritlove,a spiritual forum to discuss psychics/mediums and spirituality. Wherever you have come from, whilst you are on this forum you will hopefully be reminded of why the spirit world is real - because it exists in a plane of love, and it is love which is the force behind life on earth. Enjoy your time here...


and the very next article that follows:

say summit nice!
Posted: kirsty @ Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:55 pm

about peeps here..forget stuff you may not like bout them let just be nice  i go first then.

garymannion,for coming here
also greyman too.
elly allways friendly
kitkat adds intersting stuff for us to read
rainbows for talking a lot
ros for good reads
paddy for being mad
curious so gentle at right times
deborah was teling us about charmain
farside for transcripts
bwm for making me think
jon donnis for , er,er meaning well i think
sercher for kindess and good pics
...
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Wed 14 May 2014, 16:35

Pixie wrote:Yes I did introduce you to the Wayback machine - to help you with your fight against Donnis. I wish I hadn't have bothered now seeing as you've thrown it back at me but I can understand why you're pissed off.

Hmmm .... Ironically, the 'fight against Donnis' at that specific time being that he had deleted a large amount of my posts from his forum - with the topics continuing on ... as if those posts had not been made - and he denying that he had deleted anything and 'couldn't remember' what they consisted of.

Censorship - is what it's called! ............  You had a right go at him for that, if you remember ..... and went to the trouble of finding those censored/'forgotten' posts for me - on the Wayback Machine! (which I didn't know existed at the time).

 rock

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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Thu 15 May 2014, 10:49

Welcome

Welcome to spiritlove,a spiritual forum to discuss psychics/mediums and spirituality. Wherever you have come from, whilst you are on this forum you will hopefully be reminded of why the spirit world is real - because it exists in a plane of love, and it is love which is the force behind life on earth. Enjoy your time here...

I think the fundamental problem was that SL wasn't the sort of confirmatory environment for the belief system outlined here because it allowed opposing views.

SL was a laudable attempt at open dialogue but that's not really what "believers" are after. I can understand why Pixie, and most other believers who once posted on SL, were dissatisfied and ended up moving on.

When subjective belief/experience contradicts objective reality you have to give up one or the other.

Ne'er the twain shall meet.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Thu 15 May 2014, 13:05

Umberto Cocopop wrote:SL was a laudable attempt at open dialogue but that's not really what "believers" are after


'Open dialogue' doesn't seem to be what the 'non-believers' are after either!  

We (SL, that is) found some - on both 'sides' who were prepared to make a go of it, for a time ....
but the 'group mentality' kicked in, in places, and eventually took over.  Dictatorial stalemate became evident.


Umberto Cocopop wrote:When subjective belief/experience contradicts objective reality you have to give up one or the other.

Ne'er the twain shall meet.

I disagree.  A meeting point is possible - and feasible.  It just needs an amout of perseverance, tolerance and ...... most importantly - minds that are open to possibilities, not just probabilities - (on both 'sides').
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Thu 15 May 2014, 13:55

KitKat wrote:I disagree.  A meeting point is possible

I've never seen that actually happen. And because the basic problem comes down people thinking about such issues using contradictory approaches, agreeing is not possible.

KitKat wrote:minds that are open to possibilities, not just probabilities - (on both 'sides').

And there you go...

The correct approach is to look at probabilities, not possibilities. Appealing to 'possibility' is one of the fundamental errors of reasoning believers make when thinking about issues such as this one.

Appealing to possibility is just a variation of the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy - i.e. no one's proved it doesn't exist etc.

It would only be possible to reach some sort of agreement if the same framework of inquiry was used.
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Thu 15 May 2014, 20:53

Umberto Cocopop wrote:The correct approach is to look at probabilities, not possibilities. Appealing to 'possibility' is one of the fundamental errors of reasoning believers make when thinking about issues such as this one.

Appealing to possibility is just a variation of the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy - i.e. no one's proved it doesn't exist etc.

I know and accept that is the 'correct' logical] approach, but there is a distinct difference between 'being open to possibility' - and 'appealing to possibility'.  They are not the same thing. geek

and 'Appeal to Ignorance' is another position altogether!
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Fri 16 May 2014, 00:19

KitKat wrote:I know and accept that is the 'correct' logical] approach, but there is a distinct difference between 'being open to possibility' - and 'appealing to possibility'.  They are not the same thing. geek

As soon as "open to possibility" is used as an argument, it automatically becomes an appeal to possibility. That's just the nature of argumentation.

KitKat wrote:and 'Appeal to Ignorance' is another position altogether!

Appealing to possibility just ends up relying on "no one's proved it's not possible" and such like. Once you're relying on lack of knowledge/disproof/evidence to support a claim then the underlying structure of the claim is the Appeal to Ignorance/shifting the burden of proof fallacy.

Theoretically, any claim can have an infinite number of hypotheses to support it so it's always the case that even the most ridiculous or unlikely hypothesis could be said to be "possible". But while all hypotheses are "possible" they're not all equiprobable.

A good reasoner would be focussing on the most probable explanations rather than entertaining 'possibilities' in order to preserve a belief. That's the difference between a rational and an irrational approach.




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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Fri 16 May 2014, 14:57

Umberto Cocopop wrote:A good reasoner would be focussing on the most probable explanations rather than entertaining 'possibilities' in order to preserve a belief.
Fair enough.  But a 'good reasoner' would not necessarily reason that all 'possibilities' are intended to "preserve a belief"!  It would be quite unreasonable for them to do so.  A 'good reasoner' would not dismiss out of all proportion all other approaches to the investigation of any questionable subject.

 wary 
Having said that, I do know that what you are saying, Umbo, is correct ... really I do (for most things in life),  cheesy  but it's a frustrating [materialistic] reality - that stops at a point which assumes there is nowhere else to go. Even a probability is not that cut and dried.  


Have you seen the video I put up recently? The news item about the family cat who saved the little boy from being attacked by a neighbour's dog?  We saw what happened there.  If we were to have had a discussion at any time before our knowledge of that event ... as to what the probabilities or possibilities of that situation occurring, what probabilities, or even possibilities - the majority of us (being reasonably-thinking people  hanged )would have dismissed the notion completely - because it is not the accepted 'standard' of how things are.  The 'standard' is forever changing - and that's not a bad thing, (to my way of thinking anyway).
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Fri 16 May 2014, 22:35

KitKat wrote: a 'good reasoner' would not necessarily reason that all 'possibilities' are intended to "preserve a belief"!  

The arguments used in religion/superstition/paranormal are used with the intention of achieving "reasonableness" - e.g.: The One Percent argument - however, the soundness or strength of the reasoning is always lacking.

It's when you examine the underlying logic that reasonable sounding arguments are found wanting.

Another tactic is to make your opponent appear unreasonable - e.g. by taking something they say out of its context and apply it to all instances.

KitKat wrote:Have you seen the video I put up recently? The news item about the family cat

It's a great story, but it's wide open to fanciful interpretation. The idea that it appreciated the situation, that it risked its own life to save a family member, etc., can't be true because cats are simply not capable of such high-level cognition. It's probably a cat that will attack dogs that get too close (they do exist: my grandma had one!) and the situation was coincidental but made for a good story.

It's a good job Pixie isn't coming back to interpret this one!  giggle 
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Sat 17 May 2014, 15:49

Umberto Cocopop wrote:
KitKat wrote: a 'good reasoner' would not necessarily reason that all 'possibilities' are intended to "preserve a belief"!  

The arguments used in religion/superstition/paranormal are used with the intention of achieving "reasonableness" - e.g.: The One Percent argument - however, the soundness or strength of the reasoning is always lacking.

It's when you examine the underlying logic that reasonable sounding arguments are found wanting.

Another tactic is to make your opponent appear unreasonable - e.g. by taking something they say out of its context and apply it to all instances.

Umbo, this is not simply the case for "arguments used in religion/superstition/paranormal".  The same goes for argumentation surrounding any subject under the sun, and the same 'ploys' are used universally by either side of any debate, whatever the subject may be.

Indeed, the very process of "reasoning" is questionable in itself:

"People who make use of argumentation always appeal--whether explicitly or implicitly--to some standard of reasonableness. This, however, does not always mean that each argumentation is indeed reasonable."
(F. H. van Eemeren et al., Argumentation: Analysis, Evaluation, Presentation. Lawrence Erlbaum, 2002)


Might be a bit of an eye-opener for you (but then again, it might be no surprise at all  Wink ) to read the [full] article below, published in the New York Times in 2011:

Reason Seen More as Weapon Than Path to Truth

For centuries thinkers have assumed that the uniquely human capacity for reasoning has existed to let people reach beyond mere perception and reflex in the search for truth. Rationality allowed a solitary thinker to blaze a path to philosophical, moral and scientific enlightenment.

Now some researchers are suggesting that reason evolved for a completely different purpose: to win arguments. Rationality, by this yardstick (and irrationality too, but we’ll get to that) is nothing more or less than a servant of the hard-wired compulsion to triumph in the debating arena. According to this view, bias, lack of logic and other supposed flaws that pollute the stream of reason are instead social adaptations that enable one group to persuade (and defeat) another. Certitude works, however sharply it may depart from the truth.

The idea, labeled the argumentative theory of reasoning, is the brainchild of French cognitive social scientists, and it has stirred excited discussion (and appalled dissent) among philosophers, political scientists, educators and psychologists, some of whom say it offers profound insight into the way people think and behave. The Journal of Behavioral and Brain Sciences devoted its April issue to debates over the theory, with participants challenging everything from the definition of reason to the origins of verbal communication.

“Reasoning doesn’t have this function of helping us to get better beliefs and make better decisions,” said Hugo Mercier, who is a co-author of the journal article, with Dan Sperber. “It was a purely social phenomenon. It evolved to help us convince others and to be careful when others try to convince us.” Truth and accuracy were beside the point.

Read in full here:  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/arts/people-argue-just-to-win-scholars-assert.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Sat 17 May 2014, 21:17

The quote about reasonableness supports what I said. I never said it was exclusive to irrational beliefs - I pointed out that sounding reasonable doesn't mean an argument is reasonable. But those who defend irrational and non-evidenced beliefs always have to resort to fallacious reasoning at some point and they often go for reasonable sounding arguments as this can mask their underlying weaknesses.

I'm not saying that people who do this do so knowingly, BTW.

We're going off at a tangent now though. The subject regarding what we know and how we can know it is epistemology.





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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Kitkat on Mon 19 May 2014, 01:00

Umberto Cocopop wrote:The quote about reasonableness supports what I said. I never said it was exclusive to irrational beliefs

Well it did seem as though you were separating and singling out a certain specific area of argumentation when you said:
The arguments used in religion/superstition/paranormal are used with the intention of achieving "reasonableness"

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Umberto Cocopop
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Re: The Spiritlove Forum

Post by Umberto Cocopop on Mon 19 May 2014, 15:52

And it's true. But it doesn't mean that arguments in other areas are excluded!

"Free parking on a Sunday".

Does that mean you have to pay at other times?

The way we tend to think about things would lead most people to think we would; but in actuality, we can't logically conclude anything about parking fees at other times from the info.

I enjoy the little nuances created by how we think but they infuriate me too as it's often what makes argumentation impossible.

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