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Message for John

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krisisle
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Message for John

Post by krisisle on 30th May 2011, 10:20

Could you please go back on Spiritlove. It is really quiet over there without you and all of your skeppy followers have disappeared.

We are all in need of a good debate. So pretty please.

Don't be bringing that Discourse stuff over though, cos just read it and it's bloody boring.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Feather on 30th May 2011, 15:26

The weirdest thing of all is that they all disappeared when you did, John--except chaggle.
What does your logical mind think was the cause? shrug



I'D RATHER PURR THAN HISS!  
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Re: Message for John

Post by Guest on 30th May 2011, 17:33

I don't really want to go back on. Although I can rant and rave about the paranormal and belief systems till the cows come home, I actually don't find it all that interesting. And when you're conversing rationally with believers about their belief system, you might as well be talking to a brick wall.

As for others leaving. Well, they were nothing to do with UKS or me. I think two of them knew each other (from the Most Haunted forum) which is possibly why they left at the same time, but I don't know who they are and I very much doubt they were 'following' me.

I'm interested in cognitive psychology, mainly thinking, reasoning and decision-making, and a part of that is looking at instances where such things go wrong. This is why I also study superstition (magical thinking, sympathetic magic, etc.) and errors of reasoning (logical fallacies and such like); as, of course, false beliefs are well supported by irrational arguments!

But it becomes rather tedious when you spend your time arguing with people who hold false beliefs and use fallacious arguments to support them. It's highly repetitive and utterly pointless.

So I'm into "boring" things such as acquiring knowledge and gaining a real understanding of things. Superficial beliefs with no evidential support (other than the fallacious 'personal experience' argument) don't really cut the mustard for me. And that's all you get on believers' forums.

krisisle
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Re: Message for John

Post by krisisle on 30th May 2011, 18:43

Didn't mean to offend you. I'm sure Discourse analysis is really interesting to a psychologist. It just goes over my head. I read both those pdf's and although I found the content interesting, I didn't understand what we were meant to be looking for.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Guest on 30th May 2011, 19:38

@krisisle wrote:Didn't mean to offend you.
None taken - to paraphrase Steve Wright in the afternoon. Laughing

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so grumpy.

If you don't accept a claim or belief but don't know a great deal about it then you're accused of being a 'pseudoskeptic' but if you go out of your way and study things properly so you can explain and understand things then you're accused of "thinking you're clever" or being an "intellectual snob" or similar.

I fnd it all rather tiresome.

So I probably am a bit of a grump when it comes to this.

Still, I think a quick shower and visit to the off licence (and hopefully something good on the telly) will lift my mood!!!
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Re: Message for John

Post by Guest on 30th May 2011, 19:42

Actually, I'm in a really good mood! I've had an excellent day's work (programming my CMS) and I'm rather pleased with myself.

It's them believers wot makes me grumpy...
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Re: Message for John

Post by Kitkat on 30th May 2011, 20:16

John wrote:Superficial beliefs with no evidential support (other than the fallacious 'personal experience' argument) don't really cut the mustard for me. And that's all you get on believers' forums.
Spiritlove is NOT a "believers' forum. It's a discussion forum with a cross-section of members of differing views and interests - interacting, discussing, sharing and debating those views and interests, some which may be of a spiritual/paranormal nature, some not. It's every individual's choice whether or not to partake, spectate or whatever in the topics of their choice.

Somebody recently explained the origin and proper meaning of the word 'forum'.

noun pl. forums -·rums or fora -·ra (-ə)


  • the public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city or town, where legal and political business was conducted
  • a law court; tribunal
  • an assembly, place, radio program, etc. for the discussion of public matters or current questions
  • an opportunity for open discussion
fo·rum (fôrˈəm, fōrˈ-)
noun pl. forums fo·rums also fo·ra (fôrˈə, fōrˈə)

The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that
was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.

  • A public meeting place for open discussion.
  • A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
  • A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

That is precisely what Spiritlove offers.

A "believers" forum (of which there are many littered over the net) does not follow this principle.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Kitkat on 30th May 2011, 20:52

By the way ... I only need 30 points to topple your 'Find it' trophy. Little by little they are ALL being snatched from your clutches and you can't do a thing about it if you simply refuse to come back.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Feather on 30th May 2011, 22:02

I blame my age but I'm weary of all the arguments and point scoring as well. There's nothing new--just the "same old" from both sides. I'm tired of going round in circles so I'm trying to leave well alone. Sleep



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Re: Message for John

Post by Kitkat on 31st May 2011, 08:48

@Feather wrote:I'm tired of going round in circles

The trick is to pick up something new each time the circle goes round. Smile
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Re: Message for John

Post by Feather on 31st May 2011, 09:00

-----But that's the whole point,kk. There's hardly ever anything new these days. :eek:



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Re: Message for John

Post by Kitkat on 31st May 2011, 09:03

@Feather wrote:-----But that's the whole point,kk. There's hardly ever anything new these days.

Well, that depends where you're looking .... and what you're looking for.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Feather on 31st May 2011, 09:26

I was referring to the old debate between skeptics and believers. I must admit to having lost interest but maybe mea culpa.



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Re: Message for John

Post by Stardust on 31st May 2011, 09:56

No, I'm with you on that too, Feather. I want to believe life goes on in another form but I ask myself why it is that there's such a desert of silence from those who have passed. It makes me wonder if the occasional 'signs' or 'helping hand' from beyond are not coincidence on the one hand and my own memory drawing on 'forgotten' things on the other. I have to admit to wavering quite a lot and it's annoying even to myself. Like you, I find it difficult to discover anything new in what's available on the subject and though sometimes there's a new angle from someone, more often than not it doesn't lead us very far.

Trouble is that most phenomena said to be 'paranormal' could be explained by the functioning of our own brain which can be stimulated by so many different things.

So we're always left with the same questions that remain unanswered. But having no proof doesn't mean that whatever it is (e.g. an afterlife) does not exist. We just don't know for sure one way or the other.



Be grateful for even the smallest thing, blessings come in many disguises.

krisisle
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Re: Message for John

Post by krisisle on 31st May 2011, 10:44

..........and that is where 'Faith' comes in. None of us will ever 'know' for certain until we pass. In the meantime, all we can do is add up our own experiences and those of others and make our own personal conclusions. We can argue ourselves around a circle but neither skeptics or believers will ever know with any certainty.

However, that doesn't mean we cannot debate and have a good old ding dong occasionally. Makes it more interesting.

I know what I have witnessed and I know my own beliefs. I enjoy listening to other people and hearing their thoughts/experiences, whether they are believers or skeptics.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Feather on 31st May 2011, 10:57

Once again we are on the same wavelength, Stardust. That is pecisely what I think. The thought of no afterlife frightens me but I can't ignore the real possibility that there is just the physical dimension. I've pinned my hopes on The String Theory, other dimensions and Quantum Mechanics but non-believers and skeptics have always found a way to burst my bubble and each time they do, I suffer a bit more. I wonder why I can't have a personal experience that would convince me once and for all. It just doesn't happen. I ask myself what purpose does this serve? I find no answer that makes any sense to me. All my efforts with mediums have yielded very little. No wonder I feel like giving up but I know I won't.

????, as you know, I have no time for faith. It's a halfway house that I won't enter. It is an admission of lack of knowledge. It encourages entry into a fools' paradise. That place does nothing for me. It is a retrograde step in the pursuit of knowledge.It's a cop out.



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Re: Message for John

Post by Kitkat on 31st May 2011, 11:16

This conversation needs to be in a thread of its own. Way off topic.
(Haven't got time now - will sort it later.)

krisisle
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Re: Message for John

Post by krisisle on 31st May 2011, 12:23

@Feather wrote:
???, as you know, I have no time for faith. It's a halfway house that I won't enter. It is an admission of lack of knowledge. It encourages entry into a fools' paradise. That place does nothing for me. It is a retrograde step in the pursuit of knowledge.It's a cop out.

I was actually hoping to keep my anonymity on this forum so people wouldn't have pre-judged ideas about me. hence calling myself Krisisle.

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Re: Message for John

Post by krisisle on 31st May 2011, 12:41

by the way, how did you know it was me? Maybe you are psychic. Shocked
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Re: Message for John

Post by Feather on 31st May 2011, 13:03

Sorry about that. Concentration's not so good at my age.
It was a guess re your ID.I'm certainly not psyhhic.
Your posts helped too. sidestep



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Re: Message for John

Post by Kitkat on 31st May 2011, 19:31

@KitKat wrote:By the way ... I only need 30 points to topple your 'Find it' trophy. Little by little they are ALL being snatched from your clutches and you can't do a thing about it if you simply refuse to come back.

heh heh heh ... Another one bites the dust
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Re: Message for John

Post by Guest on 1st June 2011, 16:40

@Feather wrote:I wonder why I can't have a personal experience that would convince me once and for all. It just doesn't happen. I ask myself what purpose does this serve? I find no answer that makes any sense to me. All my efforts with mediums have yielded very little.
Well, at the risk of entering another conversation on 'the paranormal', I would say this simply comes down to psychology again. It's all about 'individual differences'.

When it comes to psychic readings (of any type) a huge part of the success of a reading is in how the sitter interprets it. Some people are very prone to seeing links where there are none or deriving great personal meaning from things that are mundane or meaningless. So is it that some people are lucky and find 'genuine mediums' or is it a case that when something comes up in a reading that applies to the sitter in some way that they blow the meaning out of all proportion because that's how things appear to them?

Some people see/hear ghosts or spirits. Does that mean that they have an ability to communicate with some other realm of existence or is their brain wired so that they lack neural inhibition (which means that, say, auditory/visual centres can fire without an external causal stimulus)?

It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with such people - it's just that their threshold for seeing patterns, making meaning, experiencing hallucinations, etc. is lower than most other people's.

So, if you are not a person who sees patterns easily or weaves highly significant personal stories around mundane events then you're unlikely to ever receive 'personal proof' - it's not because you're unlucky; you just don't have the psychological make up that's required to interpret things in this way.

I hope that makes sense!

As I've said before. I have been given tapes of psychic readings because they gave "amazing evidence" but on listening to them they are incredibly poor. But, where the reader has guessed a name correctly (after coming up with about 20 or so!) the sitter does indeed take it as an amazing hit. That's down to the psychology of the sitter and their propensity to see personal meaning in ordinary things (known as 'subjective validation').

It all comes down to psychology in the end. If your brain is not 'hard wired' to see things or make meaning that isn't there then you'll never see 'the proof'. That's because it isn't really there. The paranormal is a psychological illusion.

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Re: Message for John

Post by krisisle on 1st June 2011, 18:50

How do you explain 2 people seeing the same thing at the same time. This happens often. How can their brains both be wired to see the exact same hallucination at the exact same time.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Guest on 1st June 2011, 19:36

@krisisle wrote:How do you explain 2 people seeing the same thing at the same time. This happens often. How can their brains both be wired to see the exact same hallucination at the exact same time.
They don't.

It's known as 'shared memory' (a type of constructed, false memory) - there's a description of it on SL somewhere.
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Re: Message for John

Post by Guest on 1st June 2011, 23:36

@Feather wrote:Thank you for that post, John. I just may be your first convert. We'll see.
Just remember that I'm not on a mission to 'educate' or 'convert' people - I simply aim to understand things in a way that constitutes knowledge rather than belief.

    Current date/time is 21st July 2018, 04:51