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Multiple forum personality disorder

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Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Guest on 9th May 2011, 17:26

Just to let those with over-active imaginations and a tendency toward conspiracy theory thinking that I am not suffering from this disorder.

I'm not Fells and I'm not Duck nor any other member on the SL forum.

I don't know who they are and they are not ex-UKS members who've been drafted in by me for some 'mission'.

I'm not running several sock-puppet accounts from proxy servers nor am I talking to myself from different accounts as a cunning plan to bamboozle the inmates members.

I have left the forum. I won't be rejoining the forum.

Sorry to spoil the fun and all that..... tongue
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Kitkat on 9th May 2011, 19:04

giggle giggle giggle

You're obviously still reading in there though. :thumb:

Can I quote you over there, John ... (by proxy, like) just to put a sock in all the CTs? catlick
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Pixie on 9th May 2011, 20:19

Kit-Kat wrote:

You're obviously still reading in there though.


Busted! lol!


Just because you say you aint Duck and Fells, doesn't mean you aint!



I had a conversation once (on tinternet) with a woman and her American husband at the same time....turned out to be the same person!

The "hubby" existed only in her imagination!

And you think I'm a loon!
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 9th May 2011, 21:45

I knew they weren't you, John. It's nice and peaceful over here, isn't it? Let's keep it that way. flower



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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Guest on 10th May 2011, 19:44

Oh yes, I still have a read.

There was promise of a good argument over religion but it's fizzled out. Sad

War, conflict, etc., is really caused by our propensity for group identity. I happen to think that 'groupthink' is probably the worst human trait that there is. We seem to have an in-built need to identify ourselves as belonging to a group and once we have done so we display in-group cohesion and out-group hostility. i.e. we're very adept at creating 'them vs us' situations, and they can be based on the most trivial of things.

Religion, of course, is an extremely divisive thing - it creates a perfect scenario for 'them and us' thinking. And when God is on your side (they always worship false gods), no matter what you do, you must be right!

So how do you resolve a dispute over land when both sides' deity has promised each of them the same land? They both believe they have divine right over the territory.

So for me, the fundamental problem with so many conflicts (be it war, religion, race, etc.) is our propensity for group identities and dynamics. It's the basis for lots of social ills (discrimination, etc.) as well as extremism such as religious fanaticism.
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 10th May 2011, 21:46

I couldn't agree more. I try to think globally not nationally. National pride can be very nasty. Group thinking is definitely divisive. It's what takes the fun out of sport and replaces it with bitter rivalry. It reminds me of,say, a timid boy in the school playground who finally is accepted into the gang. With their support and backup, he soon becomes like them. I think the same applies to the violent elements in public demonstrations. Singly they could be ok but in the mob, they get the guts to smash windows, set cars on fire etc.

I think there's little hope for the world if we don't all start regarding ourselves as just human beings and not members of groups. I feel this strongly and have done for a long time.



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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Pixie on 11th May 2011, 07:06

@Feather wrote:
I think there's little hope for the world if we don't all start regarding ourselves as just human beings and not members of groups. I feel this strongly and have done for a long time.

Then the world is surely doomed isn't it because this need to belong to groups is in our hardwiring as humans.

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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by krisisle on 11th May 2011, 07:44

I think a lot of war and violence are down to greed.
Groups can and do live fine if people release their need for 'stuff' and instead care about the well being of each other. As Pixie has said, humans are naturally wired to live in groups to survive.

It is the attitude of 'he has more than me' that causes problems.
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 11th May 2011, 09:23

Well, we'll just have to pin our hopes on evolution. Hands up if you think we can't evolve any further. I suppose I was similarly hard wired but I dislike the group mentality immensely--me and thousands of others.



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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Guest on 11th May 2011, 11:32

Group or tribal mentality is certainly 'hard wired' into us and is the natural or default position we adopt (see: Tajfel and the 'minimal group experiments'). It obviously worked and was selected for in our evolutionary past - a legacy we've inherited. I would say it would take a long time for evolution to weed it out even in our plentiful modern world where we're not living on the edge of survival (well not in the west anyway).

However, as with most biases we have, this tendency can be overcome through rational thought. i.e. our higher-level thinking and understanding of how we operate as humans should be able to overcome our base instincts.

Even so, it is still very difficult to achieve. Ethnic minority cultures can exist within our society by integrating them and allowing them to be involved (see: the contact hypothesis) but even after years of peaceful co-existence, all it takes is for one instance of an apparently racially motivated event (or similar) and the two groups immediately polarise again. Base instincts being our default mode....

And as for patriotism - to me it's just another way that group mentality is encouraged so people can be coerced into doing things they might not rationally have done. I agree with this bloke: http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/entry.php/13-Some-thoughts-on-patriotism
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 11th May 2011, 21:11

I can't seem to find the "Thoughts on Patriotism" on UKS.



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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Kitkat on 11th May 2011, 21:21

@Feather wrote:I can't seem to find the "Thoughts on Patriotism" on UKS.

That link takes you straight into it, Feather. At least, it should do. I have no problem with it.
(I have read that article before ... and I'm staying well out of this particular discussion. (My "thoughts on patriotism" have got me into big trouble in the past ... wary )
In some departments, I'm mellowing with age. shtum
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Pixie on 12th May 2011, 08:42

England the country is land and water. Some parts of it are beautiful and some are not. Some people live in poor areas and still have pride in where they live, keeping their little part of the world clean and tidy and others who live in areas of beauty just can't be arsed. It's the people what make any place. I can't say that I am proud to live in a country which has a record of football violence (dating back to the 1880s). English crime stats from just under 2 years ago.

. Stats from 2009

. 1 in 3 teens carry knives
. Homophobic bullying is on the rise
. There is one theft per minute
. 20,000 teenagers tagged
. 1,000 children sexually exploited
. One child is killed as a result of abuse every week
. 30'000 criminals are members of organised criminal gangs
. 3'700 people were caught carrying knives
. 1 in 5 people think that domestic violence is justified!!!!!!

(I would love to meet these people and see just how the hell they think that it is ok to kick the shit out of your wife/husband/partner) :twisted:

This is happening in the country in which I live.

There is an opposite to all this hate, crime and violence and it is what stops me from giving up on human beings. It's the people who go out of their way to help others, those who give instead of take, It's the "spirit" of many people, the same spirit which saw us through WW2, those who will go that extra mile in order to help someone else whether it's the little boy drawing pictures to raise money to help his sick brother to get better or the man who used to stand in a shopping center every single day with a tin to raise money for Breast Cancer Research because he had lost his wife to the cancer. I do have pride in these people.

I have waved my flag out of the window during football (because we tend to suck at any sport which doesn't involve sitting down on something so I get excited if we do well) but after the shambles of the last world cup (performance and behaviour) I won't be bothering again. No

I feel proud of some English people and ashamed of others...but it has little to do with a country and more to do with them being human beings.

Have I bullshitted enough? Sleep

Time for a brew and to rescue a grotty little toddler who has smeared his toast all over his face! cheers
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 12th May 2011, 11:17

I finally found the "Some thoughts on Patriotism" section on UKS but when I click on it, I get "Invalid blog" and "Contact admin."
John-----help. I want to read that. shrug



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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Guest on 12th May 2011, 12:00

Is the url misformed?

Try this: some thoughts on patriotism

The URL is embedded in the link so should work.
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 12th May 2011, 12:20

Got the same message. crybaby



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Thoughts on Patriotism

Post by Kitkat on 12th May 2011, 13:36

@Feather wrote:Got the same message. crybaby

That's weird, Feather. Must be something to do with your browser (or maybe add-ons or something), cos I don't have any problem with that link. I'm using Chrome. I tried it with Firefox as well and still OK for me.

Anyway, I've c&p'd the article (together with the comments) into the Spoiler here, so you can have a read:

Spoiler:
Some thoughts on patriotism

by
Admin


on 21st February 2010 at 01:26 PM (9349 Views)

.
There’ve been noises from the government about making children swear an allegiance to the Queen or British flag; in other words, they want to instil a sense of patriotism.

What does patriotism mean though?

To many people it simply means some sort of pride in one’s country, a sense of historical or cultural identity, or a unifying concept that transcends religious and ethical differences: the pride in one’s nation should have precedence over other allegiances such as religions or ethnicity. Questioning and criticism of current beliefs, views and practises is encouraged as it brings about positive change. This is known as ‘constructive patriotism’.

To others, however, patriotism is an irrational notion. It stands for a love of, and obedience to, the country of one’s residence and its government. ‘Blind patriotism’, as it is known, is characterized by unquestioning positive evaluation, staunch allegiance, and intolerance of criticism.

Instilling a sense of blind patriotism into the populace does more for government than the individual. It’s all about instilling a mindset whereby the individual should think of it as his/her duty to put the needs of their country above their own. When governments are calling for a need to instil patriotism, it’s undoubtedly the ‘blind’ version they’re thinking of!

Appeals to patriotism are often used in times of war by governments to coerce people to join and fight; much of the appeal’s power coming from the slur of claiming those who don’t do their duty for Queen and country as unpatriotic and cowardly.

Possibly the most famous illustration of this was President John F. Kennedy’s appeal to patriotism: “And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.”

It was particularly well delivered and particularly well received and, of course, that’s why so many people know it even today. It’s an archetypal example of an appeal to patriotism.

What does this short sentence mean though, and how do similar appeals relate to the UK?

Well our country is a collection of landmasses with ~58 million inhabitants. I don’t think anyone can ask pieces of land to do anything for them nor, for that matter, ask the same of so many other people. Equally, an individual cannot do anything for the pieces of land we inhabit nor for more than a few other individuals. So using the term ‘country’ in this context just doesn’t make any sense.

Now, a country is run by its government; so perhaps when political leaders come out with this sort of jargon, what they mean by ‘your country’ is ‘your government’: country just being politicalese language for government.

So if we use country in the sense that it was meant by Kennedy (and by all politicians who appeal to patriotism) then the sentence reads: “And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your government can do for you; ask what you can do for your government.”

When looked at in this manner, it’s not quite such a friendly message!

There are, of course, other issues with patriotism. Some see it as a form of, or an excuse for, racism: showing preference to one’s own type rather than others (group dynamics); and problems can arise when a sub-culture in society, such as a religious group (e.g. Muslims), holds their allegiance to their religion in higher regard than to their country of residence.

Perhaps the fundamental problem with patriotism is that it creates a group mentality. This can give rise to the problems that are caused by group dynamics, whether within a nation or with other nations; and group dynamics are an easy way for leaders (not even just political ones) to influence people’s thinking - think of 'Johnny Foreigner' in war time and 'immigrants' in peace time.

I don’t think pride in one’s country is a bad thing, but this is different to blind patriotism (which I see as an irrational notion). So let’s be proud to be British, but let’s have a more cosmopolitan attitude to other peoples and cultures.

Our children can be proud of their country and become good and responsible citizens without this notion of blind allegiance to those who are in power.

Patriotism is generally considered to be a good thing (pride in your country etc.) but as there are two main ideas as to what patriotism is (constructive and blind) we need to be wary of the equivocal use of the term. When governments are calling for patriotism to be taught to schoolchildren, we really ought to consider what it is they mean by it. We may assume it’s a good idea because patriotism is good; but if it’s a case of a non-questioning, obedient attitude being encouraged, then it might just not be such a good idea after all.

___________________________________________________


Comments

1. fustbariclation - 14th April 2010 07:07 AM

Patriotism is a religion - nationalists are the fundis.

Patriotism shows all the fundamentals of a religion - a monotheist religion at that!

- Regular ritualistic events to reinforce the religion
- Ritual objects imbued with symbolic significance [flags, coats of arms, statues to heroes/saints of the religion]
- Monuments to the deity [Houses of Parliament]
- Unthinking faith: 'my country, right or wrong'
- Admission ceremonies to the religion
- You can have one country only, otherwise you're a traitor [apostate]
- The notion of a god to whom you owe allegiance
- National Anthems [songs of praise to the country god]

What's unusual is that, unlike most religions, patriotism is allowed human sacrifice.



2. Bob Lloyd - 28th June 2010 12:21 PM

Interesting article.

I've always found it difficult to identify with belonging to a particular country although I willingly share in the cultures of several. My basic problem with nationalism is that it assumes a unity of interest based on geographical origin or location, which none of us had any real control over. In my case, I have far more in common with working people regardless of where they are from than I do with the very wealthy descendants and relatives of the aristocracy and owners of multinational companies. Such a difference of interests is far more profound than where someone comes from or what language they speak.

Having said that, there is a linguistic identity which binds communities and provides a shared culture. Sometimes access to shared cultures within a geographical country is difficult because of a language barrier. In Spain for example, Catalan is the medium of education in Cataluña. In Belgium, children are taught in English, French and German in some schools, and Dutch and French in others. Giving people access to different cultural heritages is far more important than defining some nationalist identity. In this case, patriotism is really an active form of multiculturalism.

Countries which are geographically small of course have a vested interest in developing linguistic skills and orienting themselves outside their own borders. Alas, the UK is literally and metaphorically insular with a defensive attitude to culture. That fascists can appropriate the national flag as their own symbol based on a xenophobic hostility to foreign cultures, which regrettably resonates even in the mainstream social-democratic parties, is particularly sad. In many ways, it's the dirty underbelly of the prejudices that go with a belligerant defence of national boundaries and I find the discussions about immigration control particularly unpleasant. The politicians of all stripes are pandering to nascent racism instead of being willing to challenge it.

I find myself far more attuned to the ideas of Amin Maalouf who says himself that he belongs to no country but lives in many cultures. Pride in culture finds its expression in sharing it and I always remember a quotation from an old man in my village here in Spain: The strength of a culture is measured by how much it can welcome, accept and grow, rather than by how much it can keep out.

In my area of inland Southern Spain there is enormous cultural pride coupled with an openness and willingness to share that I've never seen in the UK. The narrow nationalism is only seen amongst UK ex-pats who whinge about immigration in the UK, as the sound of irony whistles around their ears.
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Re: Multiple forum personality disorder

Post by Feather on 12th May 2011, 22:01

Thanks, kk. I've read it now. Good article but I would add another thought to it. What I don't like about patriotism is that it encourages pride to rear its ugly head. I know we have to have a certain amount of pride or society would collapse but I hate the "We're better than you" type of pride which often leads to ill-feeling and/or strife.



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